Posts by drew sagan

44

Puke alert! There is another JWN - I left a comment

by AK - Jeff in

likely that they will not allow it to be published to the site.

[pending approval it says.].

here was the comment i left there.. are you aware that another site uses the same initials?

drew sagan

I liked this comment that was actually on the front page:

I usually feel sorry for the apostates with all their lies and deceptions.
Especially now that we can see Babylon the Great being totally exposed.

But they’ve already switched their tactics, now THEY are suddenly the ones
who knew about it all and Jehovah’s Witnesses are a part of (Babylon the Great).

It’s ridiculous that Satan is turning it around, blaming the only ones who have
been exposing him and Babylon the Great of actually being part of the conspiracy.

And people are so brainwashed and directionless, they’ll swallow anything right now.

I pretty much feel that JWs essentially believe in an elaborate conspiracy theory. Glad to see that are admitting it straight out...

33

The Finished Mystery Book---Was The Gov't Really That Upset With JWs?

by minimus in

....or is this mostly an exaggeration from the witnesses?.

drew sagan

ssn587, you said:

JeffT you are so right it wasn't just about jdubs, they were guilty by any definition of the word,

I must disagree. Just because you don't like J.F. Rutherford doesn't mean he must automatically be guilty of a crime. I repeat that this was a time in which many groups and individuals suffered severe repression in regards to free speech. Rutherford may have been saying some really absurd things, but that's all they were. The inability for the United States government to realize that J.F. Rutherford was simply a religious nut with no violent revolutionary intentions is a testemony to how backwards the government was at the time. boyzone said:

To be honest I find Rutherford's statements mild compared to some of the blatant statements made by the Society on other issues since that time. But I guess sensitivities were running understandably high in 1918 and any dissention or discouragement of the war effort was seen as seditious - or even treasonous.

I totally agree.

33

The Finished Mystery Book---Was The Gov't Really That Upset With JWs?

by minimus in

....or is this mostly an exaggeration from the witnesses?.

drew sagan

The events were are directly linked to American history.

The time peroid when Rutherford and Co. was locked up was a time of severe repression for many groups. It was called the "red scare". The United States government was extremely paranoid that there would be attacks on capitalism and the government from communists and other left leaning radicals. The Russian revolution as well as domestic threats of terrorism helped fule the hysteria. This was an extrememly divisive time in America. Xenophobia ran wild and a long string of anti-immegration laws came into effect during this time as well.

The Watchtower describes what happened to itself during that time without ever once referancing the historical context. This is the key point! To do so creates a myth inside the minds of JWs that some how the United States government took a unique position against the Watchtower, something historic in scope. In all actuality is was part of a greater even in the country, something that the Watchtower was only a part of. Not sharing the full context of the events is a pure example of how the Watchtower advances its own agenda. Witnesses are left to think that the situation is it's own distinct event, shaped by prophecy, the devil, and the hand of God. Thus is the power of myth!

Misinformation can many times be equated with lack of information.

12

100 Greatest Jazz Albums of All Time

by leavingwt in

100 greatest jazz albums of all time.

http://www.chordstrike.com/2009/04/the-100-greatest-jazz-albums-of-all-time.html.

i own album #2 on this list, coltrane's a love supreme.. i would describe it as "difficult".

drew sagan

Some of my favs:

Blue Train - Coltrane (get this album)

Night Train - Oscar Peterson Trio (not on the list but I think it should be, greatest piano jazz player ever)

The Blues and the Abstract Truth - Oliver Nelson (classic!)

50

You would not believe how my JW friends responded to Flippers' comments

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

so after the meeting yesterday we went for coffee, nice group.

two baptized more than 40 years, one baptized 20 years, one baptized 11 years, and one study that was invited.. someone had picked up the 6/15 wt so i said, "wow, what do you think about new light?

" they said, "what new light?

drew sagan

What it means to be a JW in 2009 is very differant than what it meant to be a JW years ago.

From what I have experienced it seems that contemporary JWs are more fixed on generalities (e.g., ideas about brotherhood, unity, non participation in armed services, and corrupt "doctrines" in other churches"). The systematic narrative which used to be a central feature of the religion has now become a side story so to speak. It is difficult to comprehend (or as JWs say "deep"). This mainly has to due with the fact that the theology was based more on specific peroids of time, peroids that have since passed. The replacement theology for this outdated model is confusing leading many JWs to focus on other reasons why it is "the truth".

What the JW are described as doing in this story pretty much is in line with my own personal experiences with JWs. From what I have found JWs tend to believe the outcomes of their faith (perception of worldwide brotherhoods, organized preaching, "truth" based doctrines) not only justify that they are in fact the true religion but in some ways also validate the exsistance of God. These get more attention than doctrines that link the organization to the bible directly.

43

so why do we do this???

by oompa in

jw
friends

why?........is it therapy or revenge?....or wanting to save others from the real truth?..what else is there?...........i feel all three...and why do i so want to help others...does not evryone have a right to their own belief?.......oompa.

drew sagan

Actually, I am very torn, I wish I could just forget all about it, but I haven't figured that part out yet...

I agree. I'll add that because my wife still has family inside the org it is tough to forget about it. The WTS is going to continue to effect of familiy for quite some time.

16

Pro-JW letter to the editor in local paper

by Shepherd Book in

jw
friends

this letter to the editor appeared in today's paper: http://www.monticellotimes.com/articles/2009/04/16/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/851witness.txt.

this is basically a response to the article that was published about me and my family (which, frustratingly, has already been archived).

in it, i claimed to shunned by almost all friends and family and to have been neither df'd nor da'd (both of these claims are true, by the way).

drew sagan

A typical response.

Notice that almost every comment this indivudal makes is a declaration of how his religion acts. No actual policies, practices, actions or examples are given. Instead he simplly states things such as:

"We do not view ourselves as better than those who do not share our views."

"We feel that everyone has the right to live the way they wish."

"We respect people’s choice on how to live their life."

These are blanket statements that hold no value. By taking the reverse of each statement we can see how off base the arguments are:

"JWs view themselvess as better than those who do not share our views."

"JWS don't feel that everyone has the right to live the way they wish."

"JW's don't respect people’s choice on how to live their life."

Statements like these demand context and discussion. To simply state them is of little value. They would be nothing more than baseless attacks. Instead giving detailed examples and information to back up these statements is what is important. Without this each statement is simply a claim, nothing more and nothing less.

He then ends his letter by praising certain people in the community in an effort to show that he personally doesn't look down on others. Seems rather insecure....

29

Going Back

by rathfear in

this is going to sound somewhat crazy.

having faded completely around two years ago i found myself with new found freedom and if was fun.

i developed new friendships and hobbies and did some stuff that was frowned upon by those in the truth.

drew sagan

It seems as if you have compartmentalized the differant aspects of the Watchtower world so that to you there actually is a distinction between the aspects of the organization that are incorrect and function poorly in comparison to other aspects you seem to idealize.

I shared some of the feelings you have during the begninning of my exit from the Watcthower. I think that you basically have not fully recovered from being inside that group. You are letting its unrealistic ideals continue to influence your behavior. Additinally, you are judging all the relationships you have with people now by the standards set by a religion you thought you left!

For a long time after leaving the Watchtower I continued to actually believe in one way or another some of their ideals where actually genuine. Eventually I began to see it differantly. Because the organization takes away so much freedom from it's members I began to realize that all of it's rhetoric was suspect. How can people be truely unified when then will be severly punished if they do not conform? At the end of the day it's forced behavior.

On top of that my breakdown was caused by a neurological condition that some people just can't understand. I look "fine" on the outside but inside I'm a mess. I was thinking If I was to go back I would have the same BS to put up with, and in order to be "accepted" I would have to endure an awful lot of nonsense. And because of my current condition which I've been told may never heal I can't handle stress on that level anymore.

Every once and a while I get to wondering "what if....". What if I had actually done things differantly, could I have possibly made being a JW work? While it may be a possibility you let pass through your mind every once and a while I think the reality of the situation demands that a person think long and hard about what exactly they are getting in to. Your comments suggest that going back is not something you think will benefit you. I do however understand how you would get the feeling that doing something like going back to the meetings could benefit you.

22

Bethel reductions in Europe

by Lost-In-Translation in

jw
friends

perhaps this has been discussed before, but at the extjforo.com (the spanish ex-witness website) there has been a lot of discussion of the governing body's decision to either close or severely reduce bethel homes in europe - in particular spain.

there was even a letter sent to all congregations in spain explaining the situation.

bethalites are being asked to leave - they are not even getting other assignments.

drew sagan

what's your source hamsterbait?

86

Help on becoming a Jehovahs Witness

by tpadgett in

jw
friends

i am seventeen years of age and have been born into christianity by my parents.

for some reason i havent really been all that into going to my christian church.

some of the things we discuss are very confusing.

drew sagan

tpadgett,

Just thought I would chime in here. I was in the same exact situation as you are, expect I was a bit younger when I came in contact with the JWs. I was interested in a JW girl at the age of 15 and she invited me to come to the Kingdom Hall. When I began to listen to their arguments and beliefs it all "made sense" to me. Eventually somebody "studied" with me and I joined the religion at age 17. Needless to say my enthuasim didn't last and I left at the age of 25 for many reasons.

Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to "sell" you their religion. Every week they have a meeting they go to where they review arguments and techniques that should be used to convince people such as your self that they are "the true religion". They will be able to talk around you in circles, and make it appear that they are "experts" that have all the answers. You will be impressed with the confidence they show as well as the warm welcome they may give you.

Not to put you down but your youth is against you on this one. The religion is deeply flawed but without much experience and knowledge it may be hard for you to perceive exactly what those flaws are. A few things you may be able to grasp. Disfellowshipping (shunning) is by far the greatest problem found within the faith. Many families have been ripped apart because of this practice. There are no checks and balances on this practice and abuses are very common. Additinally, when such a harsh punishment is part of a system such as this there simply is no way of knowing if people are actually doing things because they want to or if they are simply doing things because they are affraid of being punished. It's a little more complex than that but just realize there are some heavy issues going on.

Listening to their "logical" arguments on Bible texts is only a small part of the religion. There are many layers to this organization/religion and don't expect the members to fill you in on it. Also, to be fair most JWs are very sincere in what they believe and don't typically understand the problems their religion has. They truely believe they are helping a person when they try to convert them.